Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 3, 2012 at 7:12pm

Lets think about this.

If God allows disobedience without consequence (sometimes even death) then this world will NEVER change.

The Bible tells us clearly what God intends for this earth

Psalm 37: 9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off,
But those hoping in God are the ones that will possess the earth.

10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.

11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

I am really looking forward to these promises coming to fulfillment. And it requires the cutting off (death) of those who will not obey God.

Yes, I believe he has every right to tell us that we cannot take another persons life based on our judgements. "thou shalt not kill"

I also believe that he has full authority and he has the right to end a life based on his laws.

Even mans laws reflect the right to do such things. If you kill your neighbor, you are put in prison or on death row. Unless your President tells you that you should go oversees and kill as many people as you can in defense of the Nation. Most people are proud of this and make soldiers into heroes

Common man has no right to kill unless a greater authority decrees it.

I don't agree with war. I don't believe that man should ever kill man. I use it as an example. Most people call God a hypocrite, but completely support their Govt in war. (I don't know how you feel about all of that, it is just an example)

It is a fact that we recognize the right of the lawgiver to establish penalty. And enforce that penalty.

If we all had the right to enforce the penalties, we would have anarchy.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 6:04pm

Dennis,

Just curious.  What denomination are you?

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 4, 2012 at 3:53pm

on the issue of free will you agree we have free will   however in many places in the bible it talks about predetermination. 

Jeremiah states that God  knew us even before we were born in chapter one, verse 4-5: “The word of the  LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you  were born I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 43:7 also presents  evidence that God knew us before hand and had plans for us, “everyone who is  called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

Job 23:14 declares, “He  carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in  store.”

I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we  declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined  for our glory before time began.”

Paul understood that he was  called by God as evidenced in Galatians 1:15, “But when God, who set me apart  from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased.”

There is no book in the  Bible that contains more references of predestination than in the book of  Ephesians and no chapter more so than chapter one:

Verses 4-11; “For he chose  us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his  sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ,  in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace,  which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption  through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of  God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made  known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he  purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their  fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In  him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him  who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

In Ephesians 1:5, where it  says, “he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in  accordance with his pleasure and will…” the Greek word for adoption to sonship  is a legal term referring to the full legal standing of an adopted male heir in  Roman culture.

 

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 5, 2012 at 7:06am

This is such a good topic.

For sake of space I am going to provide links to two different articles that I think are written very well. The topics. 1) Predestination, and 2) Foreknowledge


http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005041#s=3:0-8670

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011006?q=foreknowledge&p=par

If you are inclined to read these articles, please read them carefully, and make sure you look at each scripture cited.

And there is so much to be said about both topics.

The one thing I will say on it right now is that I believe that I have a choice.

1) Obey God
2) Disobey God

Without debating why we suffer (that is a different topic) the fact is that each choice has completely different outcomes in the long run. God has given me the right to make that choice. Adam had the same two choices. Jesus had the same two choices. Adam learned disobedience, Jesus learned obedience. Disobedience brings death, suffering, cruelty, etc. Obedience will bring us life, endless peace, no more suffering, resurrection, etc.

If my life was predestined, why would God give me the right to choose?

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 4, 2012 at 4:36pm

Dennis,

It is always a pleasure to discuss this with you.  I want to say that I do not believe that any one religion is the right religion.  I believe that if we study all religions (GOD) that we can begin to piece the puzzle together.  I also believe that it doesn't matter which religion you are (HIndu, Christian, Muslin, Buddhist etc.) because the ultimate outcome is knowing/loving GOD.  The route doesn't matter it is the outcome.   

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 5, 2012 at 4:40pm

As you can tell, these discussions alone bring me comfort. Why? Because the search for truth can bring comfort.

“ If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair. ”
C. S. LEWIS

I also love the scriptures and believe that the answers are there. We just need to get past what we have been taught and see what it really says.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 5, 2012 at 4:53pm

And yet Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

And

Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 5, 2012 at 8:38pm

My interpritation on Matthew 7:13-14 is that he is talking about the two gates ,one heaven and one hell.  the straight gate or narrow gate leads to heaven and few people get in.  the broad, wide gate is to hell- the easier path/road.  So I am not sure what point you are trying to make with that biblical quote unless it was a rebutal to my statement that I don't believe one religion has all the answers......

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 5, 2012 at 8:57pm

Yes, you said

"I also believe that it doesn't matter which religion you are (HIndu, Christian, Muslin, Buddhist etc.) because the ultimate outcome is knowing/loving GOD. The route doesn't matter it is the outcome."

And that is not consistent with what Jesus taught. That is why I quoted those statements of Jesus.

He also told us this:

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Of course it makes sense that this knowledge would have to be accurate. You do not get consistent accurate knowledge from Christendom, Muslims, Hindus, etc. you can only get it from his word the Bible, and where the Bible directs us. Just my view of course.

Also, as far as heaven and Hell. The Bible doesn't say the good go to heaven and the bad go to hell to be tormented forever. Jesus said Life or Destruction, not heaven and hell. No real need for interpretation.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 5, 2012 at 9:51pm

I have done much research on the Lost years of Jesus.  There is nothing in the bible that talks about Jesus from the age of 13-29.  I truly believe that Jesus traveled to Persia, India and Tibet.  There are ancient scrolls to prove this.  I believe they called him Buddha.  So my point is I don't believe any one religion is correct.  If we study all major religions it starts to piece the puzzle together.  Again the bible was written by man and as we all know two or three or four, etc. people can hear the same conversation and interpret it differently.   

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 6, 2012 at 6:57am

Interpretation is definitely a problem. Man has completely misrepresented the Bible by their own interpretations.

I believe that the Bible was completely inspired by God. It is true that men put it on paper, but it is Gods work. His message. His word.

1 Peter 1:20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

These scriptures make it clear that the Bible interprets itself. How? A study of any one passage all to itself can be confusing, but allowing the Bible to explain itself clears things up for us.

1) use of context is important
2) use of other scriptures throughout the Bible to help us understand the scripture in question.

The internal harmony of the Bible amazes me. I find complete consistency.

It is Mans thinking and his interpretations of the Bible that muddies up the water.

Fulfillment of prophecy in the minutest of details, complete internal harmony, the same theme throughout (even though it was penned by some 40 different men over a 1,600 year period) convince me that it is more than just a history book, or novel.

So to me, other writings must stand the test of scripture. Other religions must stand the test of scripture. If there is disagreement with scripture, then I side with scripture. Truth cannot be mixed with lie. The one lie will pollute the entire truth.

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven ferments the whole lump.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 6, 2012 at 12:22pm

Part of the problem with  the interpretation of bible has to do with punctation and translation.  Again, for the old testament one needs to go back to the torah (Hebrew was the original language of most of the old testament).  GOD did not give the words in English.  Scribes would have a difficult time translating from Hebrew to English or Greek to English along with punctuation.  So again, when scribes translate it from one language to another it is left with some interpretation.  As far as the old testament and living by the word of GOD one should go talk to a rabbi. 

 

Again you say other religions must stand the test of the scripture well I believe as far as the old testament goes the Jews have it right.   After all if you want to take the bible literally, they are GOD's chosen people. 

 

The bible is not without error b/c although inspired by the words of GOD, man still wrote it.

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