Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 2:12pm

One of your original questions was "Is GOD to blame?"  My answer very simply is YES.  GOD created Adam and Eve in his image (which if it truly was in his image then they should have been perfect but that is another discussion).  Since GOD is all knowing, he knew in advance that Adam and Eve were going to eat from the tree of knowledge.  This is where suffering began.  GOD cast them out to hard labor, painful child birth and death.  So since GOD was their creator and had the power to change things , YES he is to blame (I don't want to go down the free will thing b/c to me that is a bunch of bull and every religious discuss I have had I hear the same rationalization "free will")  Your other question "Why does GOD allow so much suffering?"  The answer is pretty simple either there is NO such thing as GOD or according to the bible b/c we SIN.  Now it is pretty hard for me to believe that a very young child suffers b/c he/she has sinned unlessed her/she are paying for the sins of the world, which wouldn't make much sense b/c apparently the bible says Jesus died on the cross for our sins.  I have heard from others that GOD allows us to suffer b/c it teaches us humility/lessons etc (well if that is so, not a very loving GOD to me) and it is a way to bring us back to GOD (if that is so then guess there really isn't free will) 

I am jumping around and getting off the topic but I don't believe we have free will per se.  Free will is the belief that we have control over our actions. Having free will would mean that the future is not set and that we can alter the outcome of events by our self’s thinking or rationale.  If this was so, then do you think people would chose suffering and death?  Did GOD really give us free will?

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 3, 2012 at 3:34pm

First Lets talk about sin. The Sin that enslaves us to death is this - alienated from God, or falling short of his will and purpose.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God

This fact speaks of the condition that we are all born in. The youngest to the oldest are born in this condition. This is why the good, the innocent, and even the wicked, die.

The wicked practice what is wrong. They willfully practice sinful things, and the end of these ones is different then the end for the good and innocent who died as victims of Adam and Eves rebellion.

I believe that we have been subjected to this futility by a choice that God made.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was
subjected to futility, not by its own will but
through him that subjected it, on the basis
of hope

So the Bible teaches us that God did subject us to this, but on the basis of HOPE! He did NOT cause it. He purposed a solution. I am very interested in finding out what his solution is before I question his existence, or start to hate him, or demand an apology.

So Adam and Eve rebelled. The consequence was death to all those effected by that rebellion. That is all of us. From the youngest to the oldest.

God made a decision on how to handle the rebellion. I am sure that there were other options, but he chose to let the rebellion take its course. Why? The Bible does give us the answer to that!! It also tells us that the consequences of Adam and Eves rebellion will one day be eradicated from this earth. God has promised to reverse all of the damage done. Why hasn't he done that yet? Good question, and there is an answer.

As to free will. I have some definite thinking on this but as you say, we will not discuss that unless you want to know how I feel about it.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 3, 2012 at 6:53pm

Just one response to the free will discussion.

I believe that Adam and Eve DID choose death. God had told them with clarity that disobedience would result in death.

They WILLFULLY chose disobedience anyway.

What we are suffering today is NOT a punishment from God. It is simply the consequence of Adams choice. Gods punishment was banishment from the Garden of Eden. NOT DEATH AND SUFFERING. That is a direct result of Adams choice.

God has NOT predetermined my course in life. I am free to choose obedience to God with all that that choice brings me. Or I can choose independence from God, or the right to choose for myself what is right or wrong, regardless of what the consequences are.

It is my CHOICE.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 9:38pm

First I truly believe that if we are to read the old testament it should be from the closest translation which would be mainly hebrew with some aramaic (spelling?).  Moses is credited with writing the Torah (five books of Moses; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).  I use the Torah as my old testament.  When God took man and placed him in garden of eden he said that adam may eat from any tree of the Garden but not from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  If he ate from the tree god said "....for on the day you eat from it, you will definitely die."  You say Death/suffering isn't a punishment from GOD but a consequence of Adam's behavior.  Adam chose to defy GOD and for that he punished him.  The definition of punishment: punishment is something that someone in authority imposes on someone else as a penalty for a misdeed. It is something that is done to people to make them feel punished enough to pay for their misdeed.  If you look at this definition GOD punished adam for his behavior. 

 

I disagree with you about "God has NOT predetermine my course in life."  Sure he has, DEATH.  You can not chose not to die.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 4, 2012 at 5:22am

God did NOT put Adam to death. When God has put someone to death it was an obvious act.

The flood, Sodom and Gomorah, etc.

Adam was 936 years old when he died. God did not kill him.

Adam died because he alienated himself from God. The single act of disobedience disconnected Mankind from the only source of life. If Adam would have gone to God for help things may have turned out differently. Instead he blamed God, and there is no scriptural evidence that Adam wanted help out of his situation.

The Death of Adam and Eve was at their own hands, because of their act of rebellion. Please, reread the scripture that you quoted. Does God say if you eat of the tree then I (God) will put you to death. No. It says "you will positively die". Adam was informed! He knew what would happen. He knew what death was, and yet he rebelled anyway.

They alienated themselves from God, and every child they had after that was born in that same condition right down to our day. Hence, "the wage sin pays is death"

Paul wrote this then

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Again, pleas understand what this Sin is. It is imperfection.

So Adam made a choice to rebel inspite of that known consequence.

So ALMOST ALL of the people who have died and are in the grave are there because of what Adam did. Some died because of what they did. FLOOD, SODOM AND GOMORAH.

So what choice do we have? Simple - Rebel, or Obey. If we choose to obey, then one day in the future, when Gods Kingdom rules over the earth, The imperfection we inherited will be healed and cured and the obedient will live forever. Without cancer. Without injustice. Without suffering.

Also, everyone who died because of Adam will be brought back to life into this paradise. One day, the ONLY person who will be in the grave because of Adams sin will be Adam. God will have completely fixed the issue. Reversed the ill effects of the rebellion.

God even promises that the suffering we have experienced during this time will not even be called back to our minds. A complete healing. Physical, spiritual, emotional, and mental.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 4, 2012 at 4:00pm

GOD created all things including DEATH.  GOD created the tree of knowledge.  So ultimately death is GOD's making.  Whether it said "I" or not GOD created the tree.  Now Adam did have a choice however GOD, being all knowing, knew what Adam and Eve were going to do before they did it.  So why would GOD tempt them like that?  GOD knew the outcome.  It was man's destiny to eat from the tree.  If GOD created them in his image and GOD is perfect then Adam and Eve should have been perfect.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 4, 2012 at 5:38am

I want to add a question.

What should God have done when Adam and Eve rebelled?

1) Destroy them and start over?
2) Let them do what they want without consequence?
3) His choice was to allow them to proceed with the choice they made, but with a complete solution purposed for the future. When his intervention would maximize the benefits.

What other options can you think of?

Something else that we must consider is this. There were more than humans involved. There was also a spirit creature. Satan is the one who deceived Eve to begin with. As it progressed Satan was joined by 1/3 of the angels in heaven.

There is a BIG picture here that many of us as humans don't think about.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on October 3, 2012 at 6:00pm

Reading When Bad Things Happen to Good Peopleby Rabbi Harold Kushner opened my eyes to God and his doings.

 

Here's an excerpt:

"Innocent people do suffer misfortunes in this life. Things happen to them far worse than they deserve—they lose their jobs, they get sick, their children suffer or make them suffer. But when it happens, it does not represent God punishing them for something they did wrong. The misfortunes do not come from God at all."

I'm not a strictly religious person.. at all. But I do believe in God. Rabbi Kushner's point of view as not only a religious leader but a good person like the rest of us who has suffered his own loss has definitely helped my grieving. Why would God choose death for some in order to teach others a lesson? That doesn't sound right.

 

“A change of wind direction or the shifting of a tectonic plate can cause a hurricane or earthquake to move toward a populated area instead of out into an uninhabited stretch of land. Why? A random shift in weather patterns causes too much or too little rain over a farming area, and a year’s harvest is destroyed. A drunken driver steers his car over the center line of the highway and collides with the green Chevrolet instead of the red Ford fifty feet farther away. There is no message in all of that. These events do not reflect God’s choices. They happen at random, and randomness is another name for chaos, in those corners of the universe where God’s creative light has not yet penetrated. And chaos is evil; not wrong, not malevolent, but evil nonetheless, because by causing tragedies at random, it prevents people from believing in God’s goodness."

I hope that this helps. I would suggest reading it, because it's helped me to forgive God, and realize that it's not His fault. There are things He cannot control.. but He can help us, and guide us, in times of tragedy.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 6:07pm

Thank you for your input.  I have read this and unfortunately it did not help me.  Just one more person trying to rationalize/justify GOD's will.  In reality only GOD truly knows why he does what he does.  I don't believe we will ever be able to get into GOD's mind and find out his reasoning.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 6:03pm

Dennis,

Since you seem very versed on the bible and take it quite literally, how do you justify this:

I guess some of the issues I have with the bible and G-D is the contradictions.  One example is on the day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32:

Then he [Moses] said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

So... one minute we have God carving into stone, "Thou shalt not kill." Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 3, 2012 at 6:42pm

I don't see this as a contradiction in any way.

1st. God is the creator of all things.

Hebrews 3:4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God.

God also has laws that if obeyed benefit all of mankind. In fact it is our obligation as a created being.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man

Since God gave us life then he has the right (whether we like it or not) to expect obedience. We as parents expect the exact same thing from our children.

God also reserves the right to establish the penalty that the particular disobedience requires.

God decreed though that man cannot take this judgement into his own hands, so what he told Moses was just and right. Man cannot take another persons life based on his own standard or judgement. That is murder. by the way, people do it all the time. War, Murder, Abortion, etc.

God reserves the decision of life or death for himself as the creator and maker of everything.

When men of Israel killed people (sometimes one another) because God made a judgement, then they were acting in his behalf. There were indeed several laws that required the death penalty under the Mosaic Law. Idolatry was one of them. Under the Law of Christ things changed considerably, but it is said that Christ will come again to enforce Gods laws.

In the account that you are referring to, the Israelites were grossly guilty of idolatry to an extreme degree. Idolatry was, is, and always will be against Gods law.

So I see no contradiction. God enforced his Law in a way that only he has the right to do. But the Law that man cannot judge for himself who lives and dies still stands.

Here is an interesting passage to support some of what I am saying

Deuteronomy 30:19 I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days,...

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 3, 2012 at 6:48pm

Dennis,

Come on.  GOD sent the law down to Moses and one of them being thou shall not kill and then GOD turns around and tells people to kill.  So what you are saying is do as I say not as I do.  So all those killings done  in GOD's name is justifiable b/c GOD told them it was ok but yet the 10 commandments that was handed down to Mose from GOD says it isn't.  WOW!

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