Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Polly Gee on September 29, 2012 at 7:29am

There is no god. There never was or ever will be. In the early years people created a god to explain away things like night and day and thunder and lightning. As the years passed all religious books including the bible were written to control the masses. For those of you out there that truly believe otherwise then I believe your god is a disgusting fraud that would allow 18month old babies to be violated by old men to be cut into pieces and left in abandoned garbage bins,to allow cancer to tear through the bodies of the most beautiful people in the world and yet offer forgiveness to the old man that destroyed a young life because he repented. I reitterate, there is no god.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on September 29, 2012 at 7:56am

Polly Gee,

I certainly respect your feelings and strong belief, and I can certainly understand your conclusion. I have an uncle that feels the exact same way that you do, and we have talked many times.

I also believe that religion has destroyed the idea of God. Religion has completely distorted any idea of a God of Love. Religion really blames God for everything. Quite frankly I could not believe in such a God either.

I happen to believe that the God of the Bible is NOT the God of Religion.

Anyway, the topic is not for argument, but for discussion. Feel free to discuss.

Permalink Reply by Polly Gee on September 29, 2012 at 8:15am

I believe that every person has a soul and it is unique to each and every one of us. Our own souls can be made up of love, kindness generosity or they can be consumed with greed malice and destruction. Either way I believe each persons soul is their god and so it follows that we are all god.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on September 29, 2012 at 12:15pm

I grew up going to church and believing that there is this man sitting on a throne in heaven and when we die we get to go there if we are good.  When my grandfather died ( I was 18), I turned to G-D for comfort and I found it.  When I hit my 20's I was so busy with my life that I forgot about G-D.  Still believed in G-D but didn't have time for him/her in my life.  When I turned 40 I started re-evaluating my faith.  I started searching for answers in Christianity and outside of Christianity.  I came to the point that I didn't believe in organized religion but I did believe that there was a greater power than myself.  When my grandmother died a year ago I still had faith in G-D.  Then my best friend and soulmate died 4 months ago and for some reason my whole faith in G-D was shaken.  I started searching for answers.  Why would such a loving G-D cause so much suffering and pain?  Why in the new testament it says in many books "Ask an you shall receive" but yet we never received healing?  When I talk to various religious people they always seem to have a justification for G-D's actions.  For example, Ask an you shall receive.  Well the answers I get is well G-D answers in his own time or it may not be the answer you want etc.  To me this is a bunch of bull crap.  You call this a loving G-D?  My understanding is that Jesus died on the cross to take away our sins and the orginal sin of adam and eve.  The orginal sin was eating of the tree of knowledge which resulted in G-D telling them that one of the consequences is that they will know death.  Well as I said if Jesus died on the cross for our sins then why does death still occur?  Why does suffering still occur?  Maybe the Jews have it right.  Maybe the Messiah hasn't come yet.  Christianity justifies the countinuation of suffering and death and turmoil and war by saying well there will be a second coming in which all this will end.  So Jesus didn't get it right the first time?  Since my best friend/soulmate has passed, I have not felt any comfort from G-D.  I feel abandoned and lonely and very lost.  I have begged and cried for G-D to help me but I get NOTHING.  Is this a loving G-D?  I don't know anything anymore except that my faith has been shaken.  I do want to say this.  I was taught that believing in G-D will get us to heaven and that the belief in G-D is what gives us morals and values etc.  Well, let me say this.  This wonderful young man came into my life - he does work around my house (he is just a friend who is married with 2 kids).  He is the kindest and most giving and loving person I have ever met.  There is something so special about this young man.  He has been through so much hardship and he continues to look at the good.  When you are around him he has such a glow.  He does other work for a friend of mine and family members and they say the same thing about him.  One day I brought up a discuss about G-D because I just knew this yound man must have such great faith.  Well it turned out that he was never introduced to G-D growing up and had never gone to church.  He didn't believe in G-D.  I asked him what he believed in.  He said he believed in PEOPLE.  He believe in people's kindness and love for one another.  Wow!  Any way, I don't know what I believe anymore.  I am on a quest.  I am on my own personal journey to find answers.  One other thing I want to say is that I truly believe it is easier to be an atheist.  Why I say that is because atheist aren't disappointed by a G-D who is suppose to be loving and kind.  As a christian I have felt unloved and hurt and abandoned by G-D.  Each time I have put my faith in G-D  I have been let down.  Sometimes I think it is emotionally easier not to believe- at least I won't continue to be hurt.  Thanks for opening up this discussion.  I have rambled on and jumped from subject to subject but I am grateful that you have posted these questions and willing to read responses. 

Permalink Reply by Polly Gee on September 29, 2012 at 5:12pm

Hi Kim

Just so you know, I too was brought up a chrisitian, I believed in god and prayed every day. It was after watching my beautiful young husband die a horrible death from cancer leaving me with 2 children that I became an athiest, during his short illness I prayed and prayed. Then I realised I was praying to nothing. At first it felt very weird to stop believing, but after a short while it felt incredible. It was like a huge weight had been lifted from my shoulders and for the first time in my life I felt free. I am a good person who loves unconditionaly I am kind I am thoughtful and I no longer believe in god. I do belive that our soul lives on and that there is a spirit world. I believe this because I have seen it with my own eyes. I am a very down to earth person and I dont believe in psychics or mediums. However, when I was in palliative care with Mark I saw his grandmother standing at the end of his bed. It was around midnight and I had been having a nap, when I woke up she was there standing at the end of the bed. I blinked to make sure I was awake and not dreaming as I moved forward in my chair she became aware I was awake and in an instant she vanished and as she did a chill went through my body like I have never experienced in my life. Kim, I became incredibly grateful to have had this happen to me, because now I know that a persons spirit lives on and I believe that Mark is still with me every minute of every day. But that doesn't stop me from missing him every second.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on September 29, 2012 at 7:23pm

Polly Gee,

I am curious.

You don't believe in God, and yet you believe in a spirit realm. How did all of this get here in your view? I am sincerely interested in your viewpoint.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on September 30, 2012 at 12:24am

Polly,

I honestly don't know what to believe any more.  I am so confused and so lost.  At times I believe there is no such thing as G-D and then there are times I tend to believe that there is something greater than myself call it G-D, Buddha, Energy, Lightforce.  I am searching for answers.  When I read online about atheism and why atheist don't believe in G-D, their agruements against G-D makes a helluva lot of sense.  Like I said before, believing in G-D and hoping and having faith actually causes suffering and disappointment and feelings of abandoment.  Being an atheist is easier.   I don't know.  I will continue on my search for what I believe to be the truth. 

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on September 29, 2012 at 7:36pm

Kim

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

Could I say this?

We die because we sin. Jesus death did not take our sins away, but gave us the opportunity to be forgiven if we repent and choose to be obedient. Jesus chose obedience when he could have chosen otherwise, so he set the pattern for us. Religion has taught so many lies about all of this, that the belief system we are taught brings more hurt and anger than anything else.

Interestingly, the Bible does not tell us that Jesus death would end suffering. It is the Kingdom of God that will end suffering. You know...the Lord's Prayer..."let thy Kingdom come, let thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

So if we hope in the end of suffering based on an untruth, we will be devastated. If we base our hope on truth we can maintain our faith based on reality.

I believe that the Bible is Gods word to us. I also know that if I judged all of this by religions teaching I would be an atheist. Religion does NOT teach the Bible. They teach their own dogma. I hate it.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on September 30, 2012 at 12:16am

Dennis,

You stated that religion has destroyed the G-D of Love.  Well if you go back to the words in the old testament, G-D was not so loving.  He was an angry  G-D.  Fyi usually when I  look at the old testament I use the Torah b/c   I believe the translation from Hebrew to English is as close as you can get to the original writings in the bible.   I am just curious (no judgement) what do you believe? 

Permalink Reply by Polly Gee on September 30, 2012 at 1:52am

Dennis

We die because we sin ??? REALLY?? hundreds and hundreds of children around the world with terminal cancer, babies brought into a world where they have no food to eat and will die of starvation whilst still being breast fed....We die because we sin?????? Shouldn't we all be dead???? We die because we sin.... I think not. We die because we do. It's as simple as that. As for me beliving in a spirit world Dennis, I believe the spirit world exhists because it is there. There doesn't have to be a creator a god a buddha a jehova. Why the need to explain, why can't it just be because it is? As a human race we have been besotten with creating leaders, captains, prefects, CEO's Prime Ministers, Presidents, Kings and Queens with the pinnacle being all of the assorted gods out there. The human race as we know it would certainly crumble and fail if we took them all away. They are there to do a job, and that job is to control the masses. I am not hurt by your opinion (discussion) but I am compelled to let you know that my husband did not die because he sinned, he was a loving husband devoted father and an incredibly gentle soul. He died because he got a terrible aggressive cancer.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on September 30, 2012 at 7:00am

Polly Gee,

I appreciate very much your view. But quite frankly, we live with a simple fact. Cause and effect. Even science lives with this fact, it cannot be denied. Perhaps ignored, but not denied. Everything happens because of a cause.

Also, what do you think "sin" is?

I believe that religion teaches a distorted view. When I use the term sin, it simply means that we are imperfect, alienated from the creator because of it, and unable to repair that condition by ourselves.

Sin is a condition of the human race. It is not an indictment on the person. By your description your husband was an outstanding man. But even the best man to walk this earth (other than Jesus Christ because he was perfect) is in this condition, alienated from God because of the condition.

Why are we in this condition?
Why has the condition been allowed by God?
Does he ever intend on helping us out of this condition?
If so, how?
If so, when?

I have asked myself these questions more than once. Finding the answers to these questions was important to me. I believe that I have.

With all of that said, PLEASE do not misunderstand my reason for this discussion. I am NOT wanting an argument, or a debate, or even desiring to change any bodies mind. I just want a place specifically to discuss the variety of views that we might all have.

Have you ever noticed how intolerant people can be? How angry people get at a different viewpoint? Why is that? Nations go to war over differing opinions. Families are torn apart over differing opinions. I think it is very sad.

Any way, I am so very sorry and saddened for you because of your loss. My wife is the best person I know. She is my hero, and it is been very difficult watching her lose her battle against cancer. It has been a long, miserable war. I can't even begin to know how you feel, but I know how I feel about my losses in life, and it is without description.

I would truly appreciate the opportunity to bring some comfort to all. In your case, not with prayer or God, or the Bible. But just as another human being.

I really do appreciate everything that you say. You have stimulated thought, and to me that is a healthy process.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ADDING SO MUCH TO THIS DISCUSSION.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on September 30, 2012 at 7:29am

Kim,

What a great question. Thank you so much for asking it.

I don't have enough room here to fully answer it but here is a start. It is what I believe, and I am not trying to convince anyone else to believe the same way. I just like to share, and compare.

The Bible was written for one simple reason. To inform us of God's solution to our problem. What is our problem? We are all alienated from the creator. This started at the beginning when Adam and Eve rebelled against God's rulership. From Genesis on the Bible gives hope because it outlines Gods purpose in that he will establish his rulership over mankind. When he does, he will reverse all of the bad that has happened because of the rebellion.

The things that God did as described in the Hebrew Scriptures reflect his views and his judgements on the behavior of mankind as they willingly act in defiance to his standards.
It teaches us valuable lessons about laws that are for our benefit, and when ignored or disobeyed lead to our ruin.

Has God been angry? YES, and justifiably so. But that does not define him as a person. The Bible also gives us overwhelming accounts of his kindness, his forgiveness, his long suffering, and his love. The big picture then helps us to understand what God loves, and what he hates.

I see God as the only solution to our problems because mankind has made a total mess of things. But this thinking also leads to other questions.

Why has it taken so long for God to change things?
Why has he allowed so much agony in the process?
Etc.

Thanks so much for adding to this discussion. I hope we can continue it.

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