Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by bluebird on July 25, 2014 at 8:53pm

I can understand how you feel. I don't believe there is a god, but if there is then I hate it, because it didn't save my husband.

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Permalink Reply by Ivis Diaz on July 25, 2014 at 11:39pm

There can't be one! :(

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Permalink Reply by bluebird on July 26, 2014 at 12:54pm

I tend to agree. But if there is one, then it either doesn't care about us and about helping us, or it has no power to help us. Either way, that's really not a being I would call "god".

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Permalink Reply by bluebird on July 26, 2014 at 12:55pm

I truly don't know. If god exists at all, it is not merciful as far as i'm concerned. If it were, it would have saved my husband's life, or at the very least would have allowed me to die at the same time.

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Permalink Reply by dream moon JO B on July 26, 2014 at 3:19pm

thnx evry 1 im mad at god coz of multi loss iv had 1s it never hrt any 1 

a lot of thm had big c 

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Permalink Reply by dream moon JO B on July 27, 2014 at 3:27pm

i am so mad god

i scream god why did u steal evry 1 off us

if we steal we end up in jail or so on

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Permalink Reply by dream moon JO B on July 29, 2014 at 3:02pm

god why so mush loved 1s do u nead i ts not fair 

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Permalink Reply by dream moon JO B on August 1, 2014 at 4:27pm

i yell or scream god why 

i still feal lk givng god him or her a slap for all los we hav had

its not fair

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Permalink Reply by bluebird on August 2, 2014 at 10:50am

I completely disagree with you about this, Zell. Please be aware that not everyone shares the same (narrow, in my opinion) view of god as you do.

As for me, I don't believe there is a god, but I used to believe in god, and I never viewed that god as you view it. I don't believe in the whole "Adam and Eve" story, and most biblical scholars have clearly stated that that story, as with many other stories in the bible, is meant to be taken as metaphor, not as literal fact.

I also do not believe in the idea of "original sin".  If there is a god, I think s/he is a sonofabitch for allowing my husband to die, and more so for creating (if s/he did) a universe in which we do not know for sure that/if our loved ones continue to exist after death, that/if they are happy & well and waiting for us to be with them again. And for the sake of argument -- if there is a god, and if the Adam & Eve story is true, and if god does blame all other humans for the actions of those two humans, then god really is an evil bastard.  I am responsible for my own actions and inactions only -- I have no blame in the actions/inactions of two humans from millions of years ago, or for the actions/inactions of any other human.

If there is a god, I do not believe that s/he "gave [his] only begotten son" to redeem our sins, etc.  Again -- I am responsible for my own actions/inactions, and only I can redeem myself from them. Also, any god that would sacrifice its own child in that way truly would be an evil being -- if it's god, it doesn't need such a sacrifice, it could just choose to forgive us for whatever wrongs it feels we've committed. Jesus probably did exist, but there is no proof that he was "the son of god" any more than any other human may be. He was probably a spiritually advanced being, but he was not some kind of redeemer of humanity. If you read the things Jesus supposedly said, he never claimed to be that, either.

Also -- my husband was born with a heart condition which was never detected, which we never knew about.  If there is a god, then it was that god that caused him to be born with that heart condition, and it is that god that is responsible for his death. There are other factors as well, yes, but if there's a god then the originating factor was god's decision, god's fault.

Again, I don't believe in god, and if there is a god then I don't believe s/he is as you describe/believe, but if there is a god and if there is an afterlife, and if that god tried to keep my from being with my husband just because I am justifiably pissed off at that god and hate that god, then I say fuck him.  I will not allow god, or anyone/anything else, to keep me from my husband, even it if means that I fight that god until s/he destroys my soul for trying.  Either I will be with my husband, or I will cease to be altogether.

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Permalink Reply by bluebird on August 2, 2014 at 10:45pm

I'm sorry I am without hope and belief, too. And I agree that we will all one day have to deal with the reality of whatever is after this life, if anything. I just disagree with you on what that is. I don't know what, if anything, comes after this, and I don't believe that any human can know -- but I don't believe in the Christian mythology. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in it, or that you don't have a right to believe in it -- you certainly do.  But that doesn't mean that you are right. (I'm not saying i'm definitively right, either, by any means -- i'm saying that there's no real way to know what, if anything, comes next, and what god, if there is one, has to do with it). 

I also do not believe that I will be separated from my husband forever just because I don't happen to believe in a particular version of god -- and if I am, that would only prove that god is a bastard.  I'm not asking you to apologize for your beliefs, i'm asking you to not assume that you know what god is, and not to assume that your particular belief is shared by everyone else.

Also -- even during the long period of agnosticism I had for years before my husband died, I always thanked god when good things happened, even though I didn't know if there was a god. I did not just not give god a thought until I was hurting, I thanked god for every blessing, especially for the blessing of my husband. 

I don't believe that there is a god, but I also don't know for sure. I am not using god's name to curse and rob others -- I don't presume to tell others what/how to believe, and I have no intention or desire to rob anyone of her/his faith.  I only made my previous post in response to your post because your post presumed that you know the truth of what god is and that everyone else feels the same way, and that is an incorrect presumption. My cursing god is not meant to hurt you, or anyone else -- it is simply the truth of what I feel about god, if there is such a being.

 

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Permalink Reply by bluebird on August 9, 2014 at 11:45am

I understand that your experiences, those of your loved ones, and those you have read about have convinced you that god exists, and that's fine. I'm not trying to dissuade you.  But for me, none of the things you have described are proof of god, even if the stories are true. They might indicate that there's a god, but I don't know because I didn't experience them directly, though I've read a lot of those types of anecdotes as well, and have actually read a few of those you mentioned specifically. Also, we have to take into account human error and the human desire to believe in something, which necessarily color most human experience, and certainly color this kind of human experience.

Regarding the experience of your grandfather's friend -- assuming for the sake of argument that what was relayed to you is what really occurred, then that only proves my assertion that god is a bastard, if s/he would condemn a person to "hell" simply for not believing in her/his existence. What a petty, despotic god that would be, and certainly not one deserving of our love, respect, worship, etc.

If you have never read an account of an NDE or personal story that did not include Jesus, then you have not read widely or deeply in the afterlife literature. NDEs, when they contain mention of any kind of deity (and not all do), talk either about the deity in the religion in which the person was raised (which makes sense, since that is that person's belief system), or talk about a sort of non-denominational deity. Some accounts specifically mention that the deity relays to the person that s/he (the deity) is not as simple as any one earthly religion has described, that s/he cannot be contained in that way -- and the person who is then revived generally concurs with that. If you have only read NDE accounts which mention Jesus, then you have only read fundamentalist Christian slanted books, and you might want to consider looking for other types. Incidentally, neither Buddha nor Mohammed ever claimed to be god(s), nor are they considered to be gods by adherents of Buddhism or Islam.  Buddha was/is considered to be an enlightened teacher, and Mohammed was/is considered to be a prophet of god.

The incident you relayed from your youth, when you were 20 and broken-hearted and felt comforting arms around you, is lovely. Whether that was god or an angel or a loving spiritual being or a dead loved one or even your own subconscious, it helped you, which can only be good.

I have to say that for me, no such comfort would be required if god (assuming there is one) hadn't allowed my husband to die in the first place (in the time and way he did, I mean -- had he died when we were 90, I would be somewhat more accepting. Hell, had he died even a few years after our wedding, I would still be in anguish but it would be maybe 2% better than it is now -- but he died one week after our wedding, which clearly demonstrates to me that if there is a god, s/he doesn't give a damn about us, or at least about me).

I truly am sorry your partner died; I know what that is like (not exactly, as no one can know exactly what this hell is like for someone else, but I mean I have some idea).  If you don't view your partner's death as god's fault, then that is your choice and I can respect that. However, I do view my husband's death as god's fault. You believe in the concept of original sin and that Jesus came to redeem us (humanity) from our sins, whereas I do not (quite honestly I find that entire concept ludicrous).

It takes no faith whatsoever to be an atheist.  The very definition of atheist indicates a complete lack of faith in a deity. I am not completely an atheist, though -- I have been agnostic for many years, and my husband's death tipped me towards atheism, but really i don't believe that any human can know if there's a god or not. I don't try to explain the existence of the world, humans, etc. -- I simply accept that those things exist. Science can explain it all, but humanity doesn't sufficiently understand all of science, and certainly I don't (I'm a poet, not a scientist -- my abilities are with language, metaphor, imagery, not so much with physics, microbiology, chemistry). There might be a god who orchestrated it all, there might not be. So you are correct when you say "...the possibility of God's existence is real." -- as is the possibility that there is no god.   It doesn't really matter to me either way. 

You think that agnostics and atheists don't make choices? I have no idea why you would think that.  Every human makes choices, about pretty much everything in life. Agnostics and atheists make choices based on evidence and draw logical conclusions.

Yes, I am saying that no human has a way of proving or disproving the existence of god. It all comes down to faith, based on what each person considers to be evidence -- different people have different levels of scrutiny, and different criteria for what they believe as evidence.  And some people don't need evidence at all, they just believe because they have faith -- which is fine, but which doesn't prove anything.

As for the videos to which you linked -- most importantly, they recount subjective experiences, they are not "evidence". Additionally, each of the three comes from a fundamentalist Christian organization.  The first video was broadcast by the Christian Broadcasting Network, so of course it has a Christian slant or point of view -- nothing wrong with that, but it does have to be taken into consideration when thinking about the validity of the story. The second and third videos were broadcast by the 700 Club, another fundamentalist Christian organization, which also needs to be taken into consideration. If these videos bolster your faith, good -- but they are not proof or evidence in any way beyond that.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Quincyjr on October 17, 2014 at 11:41am

Hi, Zell. Have you ever read any articles on a site called tentmaker.org?

In my opinion, after reading a lot, and I mean tons of material there, it really makes alot of sense to me and has helped me through many low points. Really great hope for the future.

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